VOIP - Snom & Draytek problems

#1
Hello, firstly thanks to voipfone & Draytek for their support so far on our problem, because of the unusual problem and since we haven't solved it yet I'd like to post the issue and support offered so far in case anybody can help us resolve

The original detail - The problem is with VOIP at 1 of 3 sites we have, problem site is Denby Dale (DD)We use Snom phones with voipfone as service provider on phone co-op adsl. Originally had 2800G on 2.7.1 which would only hold VOIP phone registration for a few minutes - up to approx 30 minutes. We upgraded firmware to 2.8 - made no difference. Swapping out phone made no difference. We had the same setup running without problems at our Holmfirth store - 2800G on 2.7.1 with same VOIP phones and same ISP.

So we swapped the 2800G at DD with our Holmfirth store, the unit from DD on 2.8 is working fine at Holmfirth, the unit that was working at Holmfirth on 2.7.1 we sent back to DD where we have the same old problem with registration being dropped.

Now to test further we have replaced the Draytek at DD with a Solwise router which is working without problems and the Draytek on 2.7.1 is now in a 3rd store on Demon with same Snom phones without any problem.

Thanks for sticking with me on this, we are confused and not expert enough to solve problem. I should say too that we need the VPN feature of the Draytek routers hence the need to find a solution and not just change to a different manufacturer's router.

From the questions asked by voipfone & Draytek support I can say:
1 with only internet-draytek-snom connected we have the problem so no switches etc involved
2 we are able to access Internet when the SNOM phones loose registration
3 routers are same hardware version
4 NO Outbound proxy set on either router

Thank you to anybody who reads this and can offer any advice.

Martin

#2
We use Draytek 2800VG & 2600 Routers on Zen & Nildram, also using them because of their VPN capabilities - but without any problems.

I think you are saying that the DD location is the issue because the fault dissapears when the DD router goes to Holmfirth, and re-appears when the Holmfirth router goes to DD. Is that right?

If so, my guess would be that the line attenuation is very high, or the noise level is high, at DD. You can check and compare (DD vs Holmfirth) the values using the router diagnostic page.

Draytek also have some alternative firmwares available (UK2 versions I believe) for problems similar to this - you may want to try one of these.

Also, your current firmware, being 2.7.1, is quite old (Oct. 2006 release). You may want to update to the latest 2.8.1 release in any event.

Regards

Jerry

#3
Thanks Jerry,
Yes, the same Snom & Draytek connected at other sites holds registration continually. Upgrading one of the Draytek to 2.8 hasn't made any difference.
I'm with you though on an issue with the line and will follow up with Draytek and I will look at comparing the Holmfirth & DD info in Draytek Diagnostics.
Do you know if the line characteristics can be cjhanged by BT? I remember in the old days of dialup line gain could be an issue and could be changed by BT. Am I correct in assuming changing ISP wouldn't make any difference?

Thanks again for your ideas

Martin

#4
yourpc wrote:Thanks Jerry,
Yes, the same Snom & Draytek connected at other sites holds registration continually. Upgrading one of the Draytek to 2.8 hasn't made any difference.
I'm with you though on an issue with the line and will follow up with Draytek and I will look at comparing the Holmfirth & DD info in Draytek Diagnostics.
Do you know if the line characteristics can be cjhanged by BT? I remember in the old days of dialup line gain could be an issue and could be changed by BT. Am I correct in assuming changing ISP wouldn't make any difference?

Thanks again for your ideas

Martin
Hi

About the only things BT can do is change the gain on the line, and turn interleave on/off. Turning interleave on may help.

However, a useful trick is to disconnect the ring wire at the master socket (orange/white wire I think). This is generally unused in modern systems, and has the effect of removing a very long antenna lead from your system - this will immediately improve the signal to noise ratio on the line - very useful in borderline installations.
Note BT are not very happy if you go inside the master socket - but I'm unaware of anyone ever being in trouble over it. Plus, you can always re-instate the wire since its only a simple IDC connector.

Regards

Jerry

#5
Jerry, I'm just wondering if these are the figures you are talking about - SNR = 15, Loop Att = 6.0 - they are from one of Draytek sites that don't have the problem - I will be at troublesome DD tomorrow and compare their figures and also look at your idea of disconnecting the ring wire.

ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 7616000 15.0 6.0

Cheers

Martin

#6
yourpc wrote:Jerry, I'm just wondering if these are the figures you are talking about - SNR = 15, Loop Att = 6.0 - they are from one of Draytek sites that don't have the problem - I will be at troublesome DD tomorrow and compare their figures and also look at your idea of disconnecting the ring wire.

ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 7616000 15.0 6.0

Cheers

Martin
Hi Martin

They are the ones - and those numbers are pretty good.

Figures of, say, a SNR of approx. 6 dB & a loop attenuation of 57dB are pretty borderline. This would give you, generally, a max speed of around 2 MB/s. Disconnecting the ring wire may give you around a 3 dB improvement in the S/N ratio (from 6 dB to 8 or 9 dB) and a probable increase in the reported sync speed - if you are a bit lucky!

Also worth a try, and just getting back to basics at DD, is making sure that you are connecting to the BT mastersocket (even just for a trial) - with no other internal telephone wiring connected (also implies no other telephone equipment connected) and that you are using a quality ADSL Microfilter (cheap filters are rubbish).

I just checked and the ring wire is orange with white bands (if it has been cabled correctly) - but in any event, it is the wire going to connector number 3 on the terminal block that you want to remove (incoming BT line is 2-wire, going to connector block terminals A & B, all internal wiring is via connector block terminals 2, 3 & 5 connectors (terminal 4 is not used for the telephone system but is occasionally connected just for neatness).

If you want to print-out the wiring info, with pictures of the BT socket, go to http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wirin ... phone.html

Good luck!

Jerry

#7
Thanks for the full picture Jerry.

Having been to DD this morning, an update:
SNR = 10.5, Loop Att = 40

Of note the BT socket is actually a dual socket incorporating 2 lines - standard phone and broadband line - broadband line has nothing else connected to it.

I have removed the orange cable to terminal 3 on both lines, snr & loop att didn't change.

I've had to leave DD now, before I did all was working OK - 15 minutes later the snom screen shows the phone identity but the time has frozen - registration has been dropped :-(

I wonder if I should be reconnecting terminal 3 and speaking to BT? or would a later Draytek model maybe work........sorry, more questions!

Regards

Martin

#8
yourpc wrote:Thanks for the full picture Jerry.

Having been to DD this morning, an update:
SNR = 10.5, Loop Att = 40

Of note the BT socket is actually a dual socket incorporating 2 lines - standard phone and broadband line - broadband line has nothing else connected to it.

I have removed the orange cable to terminal 3 on both lines, snr & loop att didn't change.

I've had to leave DD now, before I did all was working OK - 15 minutes later the snom screen shows the phone identity but the time has frozen - registration has been dropped :-(

I wonder if I should be reconnecting terminal 3 and speaking to BT? or would a later Draytek model maybe work........sorry, more questions!

Regards

Martin
I'm near enough out of ideas. Your stats, while not good, are certainly not borderline.

Does the ADSL and/or WAN connection get dropped when the problem occurs (see "Online Status" page of 2600 Router)? You can tell if the WAN connection is being dropped by looking at the "Uptime" count on the right-side of the online status page.

Maybe a line test, organised by your ISP, is the next step.

Regards

Jerry

#9
Jerry, thanks at least for giving me hope!

I'll monitor the connection, I'm not aware that the ADSL/WAN connection is being dropped but will check.

I will now speak to our ISP and will post back with any future results.

Thanks again for following this one through for us.

Martin

#10
Update......we still have no problem with Snom registration when we use a Solwise ADSL router at Denby Dale.

Since we need VPN we have to use the Draytek on a daily basis at the cost of VOIPfone. We have also now tried a Netgear Prosafe DGFV338 and a Zyxel P-662HW-D1 - all giving the same failure at the DD site and all holding registration when used with 300s at a different site although to be exact the Draytek 2800 does occasionally drop registration at HF so we have swapped the Netgear in there which works 100%

The points of note are that using any of the 3 VPN routers at DD the registration drops after between 6 and 7 minutes - just going from the phone LCD clock - start time and frozen end time. On unregistering we can no longer log in to the phone on auto assigned IP.

Our ISP has 'tested' the line and says all is 'OK'

Is the 6 to 7 minutes relevant, I wonder? I have read about registration expiry being an issue if set to default 3600secs (60 minutes of course) Is this the SIP proposed expiry on the Snom 300s. If so we have this set at 1 minute.......or is registration expiry actually something else?

Thank you

Martin

#11
yourpc wrote:Update......we still have no problem with Snom registration when we use a Solwise ADSL router at Denby Dale.

Since we need VPN we have to use the Draytek on a daily basis at the cost of VOIPfone. We have also now tried a Netgear Prosafe DGFV338 and a Zyxel P-662HW-D1 - all giving the same failure at the DD site and all holding registration when used with 300s at a different site although to be exact the Draytek 2800 does occasionally drop registration at HF so we have swapped the Netgear in there which works 100%

The points of note are that using any of the 3 VPN routers at DD the registration drops after between 6 and 7 minutes - just going from the phone LCD clock - start time and frozen end time. On unregistering we can no longer log in to the phone on auto assigned IP.

Hi again,

It would seem to me that, since you have multiple routers that work away from DD but not at DD, then the problem must lie with the DD site.

Such a regular disconnect pattern would make me look at "other" problems affecting the local site. I once had a "similar" situation where it took forever to diagnose that the problem of regular ADSL cut-off's was caused by noise induced in the telephone line by a heating heating boiler cutting in/out on its thermostat. It was the arcing in the wall thermostat causing noise on the telephone line which was the problem. We re-routed the telephone cable and all was well.

Jerry


Our ISP has 'tested' the line and says all is 'OK'

Is the 6 to 7 minutes relevant, I wonder? I have read about registration expiry being an issue if set to default 3600secs (60 minutes of course) Is this the SIP proposed expiry on the Snom 300s. If so we have this set at 1 minute.......or is registration expiry actually something else?

Thank you

Martin

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